VoIP with existing wiring and an NTE5c

[Andrew Benham]

I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.

I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(

So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.

It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

[Theo]

Post by Andrew Benham
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

So let me understand what you have:

- a regular NTE5 backplate. Wires come in from the street, there's the
internal socket on the front which carries voice and DSL
- the SFFP, which is interstitial on the NTE5. Socket for the DSL modem on
the top, filtered internal socket for voice on the front.
https://www.bttorj45.com/vdsl-adsl-nte-filtered-faceplates/bt-mk3-vdsl-faceplate/
- regular NTE5 front plate, which has terminals for house phone wiring and a
BT socket for phones on the front

So what you want to do is replace #3 (the front plate) with something that
interposes on the phone wiring and allows you to loop through an ATA?

If you run a cable with a regular BT plug into the internal phone socket on
the SFFP, that's your voice input into the ATA. Then you need a way to
attach the ATA output to the house wiring.

You could do that with another socket box with two (or shared) terminals -
RJ11 cable from ATA is hardwired into one set of terminals, house wiring
hard wired into the other, socket on the front is for voice - something
like:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TELEPHONE-SOCKET-BT-EXTENSION-SLAVE-SURFACE-EASY-FIT-SCREW-TERMINALS-/191911995401

Then you just blank off the front of the NTE5 with an NTE5B:
https://www.comtecdirect.co.uk/product/ultima-network-termination-units-nte5a-nte5b-cte5a/PG0184/771156
- that still allows access to the internal socket/terminals for the ATA
input.

If you want it on one box, you need the NTE5 front plate to do two jobs:
1. BT male to wire (to ATA input)
2. wire terminals (ATA output, house wiring) to front socket

- you could hack up and solder the NTE5 front plate, but it wouldn't be very
nice.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider

Careful you don't cease your VDSL service by doing so.

[Graham.]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider

Careful you don't cease your VDSL service by doing so.

Yes indeed, I was told years ago that there is an Openreach "product"
which will renumber a line rather than cease it (along with the xDSL)
but as far as I can see, the likes of Sipgate and voipfone don't do it
that way

If anyone knows a safe way of doing it please let me know.

[Theo]

Post by Graham.

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider

Careful you don't cease your VDSL service by doing so.

Yes indeed, I was told years ago that there is an Openreach "product"
which will renumber a line rather than cease it (along with the xDSL)
but as far as I can see, the likes of Sipgate and voipfone don't do it
that way

Andrews and Arnold can do it (for £ 42).

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns
Careful you don't cease your VDSL service by doing so.

Andrews and Arnold can do it (for £ 42).

They're about the only ones I'd trust to get it right (or clobber BT
hard enough to put it back if they mess up).

[Graham.]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham.

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider

Careful you don't cease your VDSL service by doing so.

Yes indeed, I was told years ago that there is an Openreach "product"
which will renumber a line rather than cease it (along with the xDSL)
but as far as I can see, the likes of Sipgate and voipfone don't do it
that way

Andrews and Arnold can do it (for £ 42).
Theo

Thanks Theo. I found this which seems bang up to date
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/aaisp-finds-solution-porting-bt-fixed-line-phone-numbers-voip.html

The A&A website confused me for a while, but I think I've got it
worked out now.
My mistake was to start here:
https://order.aa.net.uk/chaos2telephony.html
and select "Port in an existing number"
you then get these off-putting warnings
&
We can port numbers to our VoIP platform from BT and some other
operators. Porting a number will stop your existing service.
&
Confirm you understand that this will stop the existing phone line
working, moving the number to VoIP, and this will stop any associated
broadband from working too.
&
I understand that porting a number will normally cease the existing
line and therefore cease any associated broadband services.

What I needed to do was read this
https://aa.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
then order a new line.
Tell them you have an existing line
and a few clicks later is the all important option to:

Move line to A&A for broadband use only (no calls possible) and port
existing number to VoIP service for £11.20/month

**The totals for their chepeast naked ADSL are £57 setup and £36.20
pcm**
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/P009k3

I am currently paying £41.04 for line rental (Post Office) and £21.01
for Sky Broadband
**a total of £41.04pcm**
That makes A&A £4.84 cheaper and the saving will pay for the setup
charge in one year.

Downside is the 200GB/month quota, I'm not used to that, I doubt it
will affect me but I'm not sure.

[Theo]

Post by Graham.
What I needed to do was read this
https://aa.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
then order a new line.
Tell them you have an existing line

They can port out the number from underneath a line, without ceasing the
broadband line. *I think* they can do this with the existing provider
holding onto the line, but if you're in some fixed term deal then it may
cause enough ructions that breaks the deal (early termination fees etc).
ISTR one issue is that your provider's billing is keyed on the phone number,
and so they need to handle it changing, which could cause a new account.
Also there are issues depending on who originally owned your number (fine if
BT/OR, trickier if NTL/TW/Virgin Media, hard if other VOIP)

Basically, you need to ask them directly if they can handle you circumstances - but
they can do it if everything is right. You don't need to take their
broadband to do it.

Theo

[Graham.]

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

I already do precicly what you propose. I have four extension sockets
around the house that are now isolated from the BT line and have the
FXS pott of an ATA "back-fed" into one of the sockets.

The simplest (although messy) way you could do this is unscrew and
remove the faceplate from the NTE5, then check that all the extension
sockets are now dead.

Find one of the ADSL filters that your ISP sent you that you didn't
need to use, plug it into the "hidden" socket inside the NTE5

Take the RJ11 - RJ11 and connect it between the filter and the router,
which should now sync up.

Optionally plug in a phone to the POTS socket on the router to access
the BT line in emergency/power faliure

Now, find the other filter your ISP sent, we are just using this as a
convenent adapter, not to filter anything. Plug one end of a secind
RJ11 - Rj11 lead into the socket on this filter and the other end of
the lead into the FXS port of the ATA. Plug the faceplate bodily into
the POTS socket on this filter (assuming the wires are long enough),
now your extesion sockets will have dialtone from the ATA.

[Graham.]

Post by Graham.
Optionally plug in a phone to the POTS socket on the router to access
the BT line in emergency/power faliure

Correction, POTS socket on the *filter*

And for the avoidance of doubt, the *plug* on the second filter that
we are using as an adaptor is left unconnected.

[Woody]

I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?

An ATA or Analogue Telephone Adapter has a POTS phone connection on
the input and an Ethernet connection to the broadband router. If the
house has several POTS sockets then all that should be necessary is to
take their common point where they connect to the NTE5(?) and plug
that into the ATA POTS connection. As I read the thread it seems to
say that the ATA will interface the POTS phone directly to broadband
coming in on the landline - which it certainly does not - I have an
ATA sitting at the side of my desk as I type so I am familiar with the
beasts.

I can see the issue of how to port the line number to the VoIP
provider and keep the landline active. Maybe A&A can do it but I
suspect the only answer may be to have a second line activated (the
drop wire is usually two-pair anyway unless it is very old), transfer
the broadband to that line, and then port the number of the original
line ceasing it shortly thereafter. Somewhat expensive I suspect
however. OK, A&A at £42 is probably cheaper but that means changing
ISP and A&A although very good as a supplier are by no means cheap.
You gets what you pays for I suppose.....

[Andy Burns]

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread

I'd say it seems you've understood it ...

[Theo]

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?

There's two ways to do VOIP:

1. Plug an ATA FXS into your BT socket. Your ATA can receive BT calls, or
VOIP calls over the internet. Your phones plug into the FXO port of the
ATA. People can ring your regular BT number or your VOIP number and your
phones ring.

2. Port your BT number to a VOIP provider and cancel your BT phone account.
You just get broadband (via cable or BB-only DSL). When people ring your
old number it connects over IP to your ATA, whose FXO port connects all your
phones.

The OP wants unhook their phones from their hard-wiring at the master socket
and instead plugging them into the FXO port of the ATA. That would apply to
#1 or #2 equally.

*Separately* they're considering doing #2, which is dumping BT providers for
voice and going all VOIP. That's where number porting comes in. But they
don't want their broadband to cease otherwise they won't be able to receive
calls over VOIP either.

(for 'BT' read 'any providers using BTOR' here)

Post by Woody
I can see the issue of how to port the line number to the VoIP
provider and keep the landline active. Maybe A&A can do it but I
suspect the only answer may be to have a second line activated (the
drop wire is usually two-pair anyway unless it is very old), transfer
the broadband to that line, and then port the number of the original
line ceasing it shortly thereafter. Somewhat expensive I suspect
however. OK, A&A at £42 is probably cheaper but that means changing
ISP and A&A although very good as a supplier are by no means cheap.
You gets what you pays for I suppose.....

The two-line route is another option. I didn't know you usually got two
pairs - is that true for buried cables too? It might also mean some
disturbance to decorations etc, which you might not want.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
I didn't know you usually got two
pairs - is that true for buried cables too?

Yes, my underground 'drop' wire has 2 pairs, it was useful when I had
PSTN for home use and ISDN/2 for business use at one time.

[Graham.]

Post by Theo

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?

1. Plug an ATA FXS into your BT socket. Your ATA can receive BT calls, or
VOIP calls over the internet. Your phones plug into the FXO port of the
ATA. People can ring your regular BT number or your VOIP number and your
phones ring.

Shouldn't that be the other way round?
FXS to telephones
FXO to exchange line

[Theo]

Post by Graham.
Shouldn't that be the other way round?
FXS to telephones
FXO to exchange line

Probably. I can never remember which way round they are.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham.
Shouldn't that be the other way round?
FXS to telephones FXO to exchange line

Probably. I can never remember which way round they are.

FXO goes to the 'central Office'.
FXS goes to a user 'Station'.

[David Woolley]

Post by Graham.
Shouldn't that be the other way round?
FXS to telephones
FXO to exchange line

This is one of those areas where the marketing department messes things
up. An FXS interface is the interface presented by a phone. S for
station. An FXO interface is the interface implemented by exchange
(central Office).

However, what is marketed as an FXO adaptor actually presents an FXS
interface, as it is named in terms of what is on the the other end of
the wire. Similarly for an FXS adapter, which presents an FXO interface.

[Graham.]

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?
An ATA or Analogue Telephone Adapter has a POTS phone connection on
the input and an Ethernet connection to the broadband router. If the
house has several POTS sockets then all that should be necessary is to
take their common point where they connect to the NTE5(?) and plug
that into the ATA POTS connection. As I read the thread it seems to
say that the ATA will interface the POTS phone directly to broadband
coming in on the landline - which it certainly does not - I have an
ATA sitting at the side of my desk as I type so I am familiar with the
beasts.
I can see the issue of how to port the line number to the VoIP
provider and keep the landline active. Maybe A&A can do it but I
suspect the only answer may be to have a second line activated (the
drop wire is usually two-pair anyway unless it is very old), transfer
the broadband to that line, and then port the number of the original
line ceasing it shortly thereafter. Somewhat expensive I suspect
however. OK, A&A at £42 is probably cheaper but that means changing
ISP and A&A although very good as a supplier are by no means cheap.
You gets what you pays for I suppose.....

Andrew has not disclosed to us what kind of ATA he has, for the
purposes of my answer I have assumed it's one that just has an FXS
port. If it's a gateway with FXS and FXO ports I haven't addressed
that.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?
An ATA or Analogue Telephone Adapter has a POTS phone connection on
the input and an Ethernet connection to the broadband router. If the
house has several POTS sockets then all that should be necessary is to
take their common point where they connect to the NTE5(?) and plug
that into the ATA POTS connection. As I read the thread it seems to
say that the ATA will interface the POTS phone directly to broadband
coming in on the landline - which it certainly does not - I have an
ATA sitting at the side of my desk as I type so I am familiar with the
beasts.

I have structured cabling, mostly I use IP phones but I do have a couple
of numbers on a Linksys PAP2 which lives in the network rack. The
Ethernet connection obviously goes to the switch, the 2 FXS ports are
cabled to RJ45 sockets on the patch panel, where they are patched to
whichever port I want to site a phone at.

For example at the moment, Line 1 is connected to port 8 and Line 2 to
port 3, at the wall plates for these RJ45-to-BT dongles are connected
and the phones plug into these. That way I can have a phone on either
line wherever I want.

Each line from the ATA is paralleled to two RJ45 sockets on the patch
panel so I can have 2 phones on each line.

[David Wade]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Woody
I am somewhat confused by this thread - can someone clarify it please?
An ATA or Analogue Telephone Adapter has a POTS phone connection on
the input and an Ethernet connection to the broadband router. If the
house has several POTS sockets then all that should be necessary is to
take their common point where they connect to the NTE5(?) and plug
that into the ATA POTS connection. As I read the thread it seems to
say that the ATA will interface the POTS phone directly to broadband
coming in on the landline - which it certainly does not - I have an
ATA sitting at the side of my desk as I type so I am familiar with the
beasts.

I have structured cabling, mostly I use IP phones but I do have a couple
of numbers on a Linksys PAP2 which lives in the network rack. The
Ethernet connection obviously goes to the switch, the 2 FXS ports are
cabled to RJ45 sockets on the patch panel, where they are patched to
whichever port I want to site a phone at.
For example at the moment, Line 1 is connected to port 8 and Line 2 to
port 3, at the wall plates for these RJ45-to-BT dongles are connected
and the phones plug into these. That way I can have a phone on either
line wherever I want.
Each line from the ATA is paralleled to two RJ45 sockets on the patch
panel so I can have 2 phones on each line.

I was confused, in that as far as I know you can't get broadband (other
than Virgin Media) without a landline, and if so why bother porting the
number to VOIP?

Dave

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by David Wade
I was confused, in that as far as I know you can't get broadband (other
than Virgin Media) without a landline, and if so why bother porting the
number to VOIP?
Dave

Perhaps it is a memorable number, known to friends/customers or whoever
and they want to port it so that the landline that *is* needed for
broadband can have a boring who-cares-what-it-is number..?

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Wade
I was confused, in that as far as I know you can't get broadband (other
than Virgin Media) without a landline, and if so why bother porting the
number to VOIP?

Better deals on calls?

[Graham.]

Post by David Wade
I was confused, in that as far as I know you can't get broadband (other
than Virgin Media) without a landline, and if so why bother porting the
number to VOIP?
Dave

Multiple simultaneous incoming calls on your cherished number.

Also, as discussed earlier, Andrews & Arnold do offer "naked"
broadband over an openreach pair, but I need to confirm if you are
tied to *their* broadband. I suspect you are, because how would you
order BB from a different supplier if the copper pair has no number?

Unless for administrative purposes it has the same number that was
ported to VoIP, but that's conjecture.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Graham.
Also, as discussed earlier, Andrews & Arnold do offer "naked"
broadband over an openreach pair, but I need to confirm if you are
tied to *their* broadband. I suspect you are, because how would you
order BB from a different supplier if the copper pair has no number?

I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

Post by Graham.
Unless for administrative purposes it has the same number that was
ported to VoIP, but that's conjecture.

No.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?

Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

[Graham.]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

There must be different implementations of OCB because on some lines
you hear NU as soon as you pick up the receiver.

I have also encountered a lot of lines where the exchange end was
connected to a DSLAM only and not to the switch so the line sounded as
dead as a dodo with no 48V. This was not a fault or an oversight, it
seemed to be routine for a while, but I should add that my experience
with these lines was not in a domestic or normal business setting,
they were in High Street Pharmacies connected via ADSL to the NHS "N3"
infrastructure.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

[Andy Burns]

I will try [...] 999

Not a good idea.

[Graham.]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

Bear in mind that 101 is chargable.

If you really must test Emergency Services leave no doubt that it's a
test, and don't try it more than once.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

Bear in mind that 101 is chargable.

Then that one must fail since there is no means for anyone to charge me.

Post by Graham.
If you really must test Emergency Services leave no doubt that it's a
test, and don't try it more than once.

Your belief that I might try a second time after a first one did complete
and connect reflects poorly of your opinion of my lack of common sense :-(

[Graham.]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

Bear in mind that 101 is chargable.

Then that one must fail since there is no means for anyone to charge me.

Post by Graham.
If you really must test Emergency Services leave no doubt that it's a
test, and don't try it more than once.

Your belief that I might try a second time after a first one did complete
and connect reflects poorly of your opinion of my lack of common sense :-(

Point taken. But don't forget this group unlike another I could
mention, is still indexed by Google, for the benefit of the less
knowledgeable.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

I think this is an old-style AAISP copper pair - AIUI the current copper pair
they can supply has no dial tone and connects directly to a pre-recorded message
from Adrian (rather like the local taxi phones provided in supermarkets).

See the 'Technical' section of https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

I think the pair has a phone number, but one can't (easily?) find out what
that number is.

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:39:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

I think this is an old-style AAISP copper pair - AIUI the current copper pair
they can supply has no dial tone and connects directly to a pre-recorded message
from Adrian (rather like the local taxi phones provided in supermarkets).
See the 'Technical' section of https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
I think the pair has a phone number, but one can't (easily?) find out what
that number is.

This line was installed in February of this year.

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 22:08:21 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Anthony R. Gold
I have a naked A&A line along with their VDSL service and it has a line
number that can be identified by dialing 17070.

That sounds like DSL provided on an outgoing calls barred line, rather
than naked DSL.

If those two are different, what test could distinguish the situation?
Also see Technical here: https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

Usually you hear a normal dialtone and you can dial 999 17070 (and
Freephone?) but if you dial a chargable number you hear NU tone after
a few keypresses.

I am not now at the site. I only know there is dial tone and 17070 works.
Tomorrow I will try some Freephone numbers and maybe also 101, 111 and 999.

My A&A £10 pcm "Naked DSL" broadband line can dial through to 999, 111 and
freephone numbers. I am now encouraged to dust off my old 1899/18185/18866
type accounts to see whether they work and offer a further safety net to
make outgoing calls if ever all other means have failed. Are there any such
service with 0800 access using CLI or access codes?

[Theo]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
My A&A £10 pcm "Naked DSL" broadband line can dial through to 999, 111 and
freephone numbers. I am now encouraged to dust off my old 1899/18185/18866
type accounts to see whether they work and offer a further safety net to
make outgoing calls if ever all other means have failed. Are there any such
service with 0800 access using CLI or access codes?

All of the 1899/18185/18866 have an 0808 number ('for access from
NTL/Telewest' - it was that long ago). Though I'm not sure how competitive
the rates are these days - they seemed to drift upwards. Though a useful
option. Also, a lot of VOIP providers offer 'local access numbers' which are
sometimes 080x.

Some offer ringback services (eg Betamax/Dellmont ones). If you dial the
number of your DSL line, does the phone ring?

Theo

[Anthony R. Gold]

On 31 Jul 2018 21:06:36 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo

Post by Anthony R. Gold
My A&A £10 pcm "Naked DSL" broadband line can dial through to 999, 111 and
freephone numbers. I am now encouraged to dust off my old 1899/18185/18866
type accounts to see whether they work and offer a further safety net to
make outgoing calls if ever all other means have failed. Are there any such
service with 0800 access using CLI or access codes?

All of the 1899/18185/18866 have an 0808 number ('for access from
NTL/Telewest' - it was that long ago). Though I'm not sure how competitive
the rates are these days - they seemed to drift upwards. Though a useful
option. Also, a lot of VOIP providers offer 'local access numbers' which are
sometimes 080x.

Many thanks for that. I see 18866 has 0808 1701701, 18185 has 0808 1703703
and 1899 has 0808 1708708. I'll give those a try tomorrow. As an emergency
backup facility for a rare-to-never transient event the calling costs will
not be an issue.

Post by Theo
Some offer ringback services (eg Betamax/Dellmont ones). If you dial the
number of your DSL line, does the phone ring?

No.

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:27:12 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On 31 Jul 2018 21:06:36 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
All of the 1899/18185/18866 have an 0808 number ('for access from
NTL/Telewest' - it was that long ago). Though I'm not sure how competitive
the rates are these days - they seemed to drift upwards. Though a useful
option. Also, a lot of VOIP providers offer 'local access numbers' which are
sometimes 080x.

Many thanks for that. I see 18866 has 0808 1701701, 18185 has 0808 1703703
and 1899 has 0808 1708708. I'll give those a try tomorrow. As an emergency
backup facility for a rare-to-never transient event the calling costs will
not be an issue.

Bingo - I do have full outward calling over my A&A "Naked DSL" line and I
now have something useful to plug into the FXO port of my Gigaset.

Thanks to all.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham.
Andrews & Arnold do offer "naked"
broadband over an openreach pair

I'm told there is a danger to having naked broadband, when searching for
a spare pair, the likes of Kelly/Quinn have a tendency to presume that
lack of dialtone means unused and "steal" the pair ...

[Graham.]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Graham.
Andrews & Arnold do offer "naked"
broadband over an openreach pair

I'm told there is a danger to having naked broadband, when searching for
a spare pair, the likes of Kelly/Quinn have a tendency to presume that
lack of dialtone means unused and "steal" the pair ...

I think you read that on the A&A site. Last paragraph here.
https://aa.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html

It is implied that there is no 999 service available on the pair which
I find odd given OFCOMs paranoia in this area.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham.

Post by Andy Burns
I'm told there is a danger to having naked broadband

I think you read that on the A&A site.

No, from an old school pal who's an openreach techie ...

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Graham.

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

I already do precicly what you propose. I have four extension sockets
around the house that are now isolated from the BT line and have the
FXS pott of an ATA "back-fed" into one of the sockets.
The simplest (although messy) way you could do this is unscrew and
remove the faceplate from the NTE5, then check that all the extension
sockets are now dead.
Find one of the ADSL filters that your ISP sent you that you didn't
need to use, plug it into the "hidden" socket inside the NTE5
Take the RJ11 - RJ11 and connect it between the filter and the router,
which should now sync up.
Optionally plug in a phone to the POTS socket on the router to access
the BT line in emergency/power faliure
Now, find the other filter your ISP sent, we are just using this as a
convenent adapter, not to filter anything. Plug one end of a secind
RJ11 - Rj11 lead into the socket on this filter and the other end of
the lead into the FXS port of the ATA. Plug the faceplate bodily into
the POTS socket on this filter (assuming the wires are long enough),
now your extesion sockets will have dialtone from the ATA.

Unfortunately this doesn't work with the new NTE5C - the home wiring is
connected on the backplate and accessed via an extra set of contacts on
the test socket.

[Graham.]

Post by Andrew Benham
Unfortunately this doesn't work with the new NTE5C - the home wiring is
connected on the backplate and accessed via an extra set of contacts on
the test socket.

So I see, I confess I hadn't seen one before

So remove the faceplate permanently
Feed one of your extension sockets with the FSX port using the
supplied RJ11-RJ11 and an ADSL filter as an adapter. If you want a
phone at that position as well there is a convenient BT socket on the
filter. Couldn't be simpler.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf

I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf
I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

Aha, I've just invested in a spare VDSL SSFP for the NTE5c, and I can see a
way to do what I want - with some modifications to the circuit board.
To recap, I want to use the phone socket on the VDSL SSFP to inject the audio
from the ATA onto the house phone wiring.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf
I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

Aha, I've just invested in a spare VDSL SSFP for the NTE5c, and I can see a
way to do what I want - with some modifications to the circuit board.
To recap, I want to use the phone socket on the VDSL SSFP to inject the audio
from the ATA onto the house phone wiring.

I use structured cabling. The flat is wired with a mixture of Cat 5e and
Cat 6, with the usual RJ45 sockets wired back to a patch panel. The ATA
sits in the rack with all the other comms and computer kit and I just
patch the outputs from the ATA (Linksys PAP2) to whichever socket I want
and then use an RJ45 to BT socket dongle to connect the phone(s).

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf
I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

Aha, I've just invested in a spare VDSL SSFP for the NTE5c, and I can see a
way to do what I want - with some modifications to the circuit board.
To recap, I want to use the phone socket on the VDSL SSFP to inject the audio
from the ATA onto the house phone wiring.

I've done a write-up at:

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

[Graham.]

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf
I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

Aha, I've just invested in a spare VDSL SSFP for the NTE5c, and I can see a
way to do what I want - with some modifications to the circuit board.
To recap, I want to use the phone socket on the VDSL SSFP to inject the audio
from the ATA onto the house phone wiring.

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

It's certainly a neat arrangement, and leaves the opentrach/subscriber
demarcation intact.

It should be understood that the filter in the faceplate that is still
in the ATA derived voice line, is completely unnecessary.

Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

[Graham.]

Post by Graham.
It's certainly a neat arrangement, and leaves the opentrach/subscriber
demarcation intact.
It should be understood that the filter in the faceplate that is still
in the ATA derived voice line, is completely unnecessary.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Graham.

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

Aha, what I'm looking for is apparently a VRI Isolation Faceplate, shown
on page 14 of
https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/STIN517v1p3.pdf
I wonder if they actually exist yet ?

Aha, I've just invested in a spare VDSL SSFP for the NTE5c, and I can see a
way to do what I want - with some modifications to the circuit board.
To recap, I want to use the phone socket on the VDSL SSFP to inject the audio
from the ATA onto the house phone wiring.

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

It's certainly a neat arrangement, and leaves the opentrach/subscriber
demarcation intact.
It should be understood that the filter in the faceplate that is still
in the ATA derived voice line, is completely unnecessary.

The way I've modified the faceplate means that the filter components are
still connected to the incoming line but don't go anywhere. The voice
circuit from the ATA through the NTE5c/faceplate out to the house wiring
doesn't have any filtering.

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Does the line have the message from Adrian on it, or just dial tone ?

CHAOS2 seems to think that my landline isn't originally a BT number and so
refuses to do a seamless migration. I guess it's right, my landline is
originally a GPO number :-o

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 22:03:28 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Does the line have the message from Adrian on it, or just dial tone ?

No message from Rev A, just the 350Hz + 440Hz BT dial tone.

Post by Andrew Benham
CHAOS2 seems to think that my landline isn't originally a BT number and so
refuses to do a seamless migration. I guess it's right, my landline is
originally a GPO number :-o

The new Openreach Naked DSL line comes with a phone number that is shown on
the A&A account management page, can be revealed by 17070 and is presented
as CLI when calling via 18185 etc.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 22:03:28 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Does the line have the message from Adrian on it, or just dial tone ?

No message from Rev A, just the 350Hz + 440Hz BT dial tone.

Post by Andrew Benham
CHAOS2 seems to think that my landline isn't originally a BT number and so
refuses to do a seamless migration. I guess it's right, my landline is
originally a GPO number :-o

The new Openreach Naked DSL line comes with a phone number that is shown on
the A&A account management page, can be revealed by 17070 and is presented
as CLI when calling via 18185 etc.

CHAOS2 has been fixed, and I've just placed my order for A&A taking over the
landline and porting the number to VoIP.

I'll see whether I get Adrian's voice message or dial tone.

AIUI you can make (free) calls which have a presentation number which does not
accept incoming calls. Since 1st October that's been outlawed by Ofcom!

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statements/category-2/guidelines-for-cli-facilities

Section 4.10 of the PDF linked under "Update 30 July 2018".

Perhaps we can have adjacent cells in prison ?

[Graham.]

Post by Andrew Benham
CHAOS2 has been fixed, and I've just placed my order for A&A taking over the
landline and porting the number to VoIP.
I'll see whether I get Adrian's voice message or dial tone.
AIUI you can make (free) calls which have a presentation number which does not
accept incoming calls. Since 1st October that's been outlawed by Ofcom!
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statements/category-2/guidelines-for-cli-facilities
Section 4.10 of the PDF linked under "Update 30 July 2018".
Perhaps we can have adjacent cells in prison ?

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/116670/cli-guidance.pdf

1 Summary
1.5
...The aim of this document is to establish the principles
for this approach, setting out what is expected of CPs to meet these
requirements and to
provide guidance for all CPs that participate in the origination,
transmission and
termination of a call in the UK.


Enforcement
2.12 Although this guidance is not legally binding, we may take it
into account in enforcement
action against other binding requirements...


All my outbound calls go via a Luxemburg based VoIP CP so are
presumably outside the scope of the document. That provider does not
provide me with an incoming service. It does however allow me to spoof
a presentation number of my choice, providing I can receive a
verification call on that number, so my landline, a mobile number of a
family member, or one of my many incoming VoIP numbers from other
providers are all candidates. They are indeed valid and dialable, but
only because I want them to be. I am not sure if they always uniquely
identify me as the caller.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Interesting. On such outbound calls, what calling line ID is presented to
the called party ? And what does 17070 report as your number - same
or different ?

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:54:27 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Interesting. On such outbound calls, what calling line ID is presented to
the called party ? And what does 17070 report as your number - same
or different ?

The same number as is also shown at the top of the A&A Control page.

[Graham.]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:54:27 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Interesting. On such outbound calls, what calling line ID is presented to
the called party ? And what does 17070 report as your number - same
or different ?

The same number as is also shown at the top of the A&A Control page.

Is it a NGN or a geographic number, and if the latter does the STD
code tally with the actual location?

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:54:27 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Interesting. On such outbound calls, what calling line ID is presented to
the called party ? And what does 17070 report as your number - same
or different ?

The same number as is also shown at the top of the A&A Control page.

Is it a NGN or a geographic number, and if the latter does the STD
code tally with the actual location?

My number is 020 7938 xxxx which is exactly right for the BT Kensington
Green exchange in London W8.

[Andrew Benham]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Graham.

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:54:27 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:38:45 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Benham

Post by Andrew Benham

Post by Graham.
Is it possible to dial anything at all on the A&A line like 999 112 or
17070?

I'll let you know when the migration to an A&A copper pair has happened.
AIUI the copper pair has a repeating voice message from Adrian saying
"Kelly Kowboys, hands off this line". I don't think there's dial tone,
and at the foot of
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-phoneline.html
it states "We do not allow any calls in or out"

The A&A "Naked DSL" line for my VDSL service has a dial tone and can reach
17070, 999, and 0800 numbers so, most interestingly, the 0808 access numbers
for dial-around services 18866, 18185 and 1899 with the result that you can
actually dial virtually anyone anywhere. Only the "no calls in" is true.

Interesting. On such outbound calls, what calling line ID is presented to
the called party ? And what does 17070 report as your number - same
or different ?

The same number as is also shown at the top of the A&A Control page.

Is it a NGN or a geographic number, and if the latter does the STD
code tally with the actual location?

My number is 020 7938 xxxx which is exactly right for the BT Kensington
Green exchange in London W8.

My AAISP line takeover and port existing number to VoIP happened yesterday.
The copper pair has a new number 020 8364 xxxx which is geographically
correct for Winchmore Hill. Currently this number accepts incoming calls
and allows free calls out - which is not what AAISP expect. There's a
further order gone in to BT from AAISP this morning in an attempt to
get it right.
A phone line which has dial tone but doesn't permit chargeable calls
(e.g. to the speaking clock) is /exactly/ what the Kelly Kowboys would
decide to reuse.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Andrew Benham
A phone line which has dial tone but doesn't permit chargeable calls
(e.g. to the speaking clock) is/exactly/ what the Kelly Kowboys would
decide to reuse.

I'd have thought a dialtone would be enough to deter them, and that a
"naked" DSL line without a dialtone would be a perfect victim for them?

[Michael Chare]

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

The VOIP base station for my Gigaset DECT phones is an N300IP which is a
box that lives next to my router. It has a wired connection to the
router and a phone line connection. It can be configured to use a
variety of VOIP providers. No need for Wifi.

[Graham.]

Post by Michael Chare

Post by Andrew Benham
I'm planning to switch my landline number over to a VoIP provider, and use an
ATA to connect to the existing phone wiring and handsets. That way my aged
parent doesn't need to learn anything new.
I used to have 2 master sockets - an early NTE5 with a DSL faceplate, and
then a single pair link from the filtered side of that to a 'voice only'
master socket. That was done to make it easy to switch to VoIP - remove the
single pair link and plug the ATA into the 'voice only' master socket. But
an Openreach man replaced them both with an NTE5c and a VDSL Service Specific
Face Plate (SSFP), despite my explaining why I'd done it like that :-(
So now I have an NTE5c and a VDSL SSFP, and no easy way to connect from
an ATA to the existing phone wiring. Now it strikes me that it ought
to be possible to connect from the ATA to the BT phone socket on the
VDSL SSFP - but that I'd need to cut something(s) in the faceplate wiring
so that the phone socket on the faceplate doesn't get the filtered voice
signal.
It also strikes me that I'm probably not the first person to think of
this. Has anyone done it already and can explain what to cut ?

The VOIP base station for my Gigaset DECT phones is an N300IP which is a
box that lives next to my router. It has a wired connection to the
router and a phone line connection. It can be configured to use a
variety of VOIP providers. No need for Wifi.

That seems to be the right answe to the wrong question. Did you mean
to post it to the thread :-

"VoIP Handset that uses a wi-fi connection rather then wired?."