Porting

[Malcolm Loades]

I seem to have hit a snag. My broadband and combined landline package
is currently with Uno.

Toob can now provide me with FTTP so I intend to port my Uno billed
landline to Sipgate. Problem is Sipgate say they can't port from Uno
(CUPID 782)! Sipgate partner with Magrathea Telecoms.

Has anyone ported a number from Uno to another voip provider? I've had
the number for over 45 years so that may give a hint as to my age and
that of many people I know. Many of them still call me on my landline.
Using a mobile never occurs to them :-(

I've not had need of a landline for outgoing calls for 15 years since I
began using voip, but I don't want to effectively cut off those who want
to continue calling me on my decades old landline number.

Malcolm

[[e-mail]]

I seem to have hit a snag. My broadband and combined landline package
is currently with Uno.
Toob can now provide me with FTTP so I intend to port my Uno billed
landline to Sipgate. Problem is Sipgate say they can't port from Uno
(CUPID 782)! Sipgate partner with Magrathea Telecoms.
Has anyone ported a number from Uno to another voip provider? I've had
the number for over 45 years so that may give a hint as to my age and
that of many people I know. Many of them still call me on my landline.
Using a mobile never occurs to them :-(
I've not had need of a landline for outgoing calls for 15 years since I
began using voip, but I don't want to effectively cut off those who want
to continue calling me on my decades old landline number.
Malcolm

If you have had the number for over 45 years then it was presumably a BT number originally, so there should not be a problem.

Some BT numbers (Broadband Voice / Talk & ?ISDN MNO's?) were not portable.

[Theo]

Post by ***@gmail.com
If you have had the number for over 45 years then it was presumably a BT number originally, so there should not be a problem.

+1

Landline porting works a bit like email forwarding. BT 'own' the number
range, like Google own the @gmail.com mail domain. On BT's system there's a
config setting that says 'send calls to Uno'. You need them to change the
setting to 'send calls to Sipgate'. You don't want BT to send them to Uno
who send them to Sipgate.

That means the porting instruction goes to BT, not to Uno.
To confirm, check your number here:
https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm

- even if your service is with Sky or Talktalk or whoever, it still shows as
a BT number.

Post by ***@gmail.com
Some BT numbers (Broadband Voice / Talk & ?ISDN MNO's?) were not portable.

It typically depends on a patchwork of porting agreements, and it may be
some of those numbers aren't covered (eg they might be BT Retail and not
BT Openreach).

Theo

[Woody]

Post by Theo

Post by ***@gmail.com
If you have had the number for over 45 years then it was presumably a BT number originally, so there should not be a problem.

+1
Landline porting works a bit like email forwarding. BT 'own' the number
config setting that says 'send calls to Uno'. You need them to change the
setting to 'send calls to Sipgate'. You don't want BT to send them to Uno
who send them to Sipgate.
That means the porting instruction goes to BT, not to Uno.
https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm
- even if your service is with Sky or Talktalk or whoever, it still shows as
a BT number.

Post by ***@gmail.com
Some BT numbers (Broadband Voice / Talk & ?ISDN MNO's?) were not portable.

It typically depends on a patchwork of porting agreements, and it may be
some of those numbers aren't covered (eg they might be BT Retail and not
BT Openreach).

The issue there is that once you have your phone service provided by
such as Sky or TT it disappears off the BT systems. The excellent site
you nominate run by Angus has nothing to do with BT. If you go to a BT
checking site and enter a Sky or TT number it will come back as not
found. I have just checked on Magsys with two known non-BT numbers and
whilst it shows up the BT charging rate it also shows the service
operator which is NOT BT.

That is why (Ofcom?) set up the system that you tell your new SP your
number and the name of the old SP and it is up to them to organise it.
If Sipgate can't (or won't I more suspect as they have recently ceased
the Sipgate Basic package) then the only option is to move it to a
different SP (even BT?), use it for a bit, then transfer it to Sipgate.

Ask Marky says, the whole shebang is a bl**dy mess!

[Malcolm Loades]

On 11/10/2022 16:00, Woody wrote:
<snip>

Post by Woody
That is why (Ofcom?) set up the system that you tell your new SP your
number and the name of the old SP and it is up to them to organise it.
If Sipgate can't (or won't I more suspect as they have recently ceased
the Sipgate Basic package) then the only option is to move it to a
different SP (even BT?), use it for a bit, then transfer it to Sipgate.

Not sure about Sipgate not wanting to do it because I only have an
existing free account - they make money on my calls.

I also have an account with voip.co.uk now firstcom europe. They too
aren't able to port in from Uno under the 'usual' system. They did
mention an IPEX port (can anyone tell me what that is?) which could take
much, much longer and which they wont be any more precise about.

Post by Woody
Ask Marky says, the whole shebang is a bl**dy mess!

As I've found out.

Malcolm

[Malcolm Loades]

On 11/10/2022 20:02, Malcolm Loades wrote:
<snip>

They did mention an IPEX port (can anyone tell me what that is?) which could take
much, much longer and which they wont be any more precise about.

I then asked Sipgate if they could do an IPEX port. Their reply was
more helpful than voip.co.uk in that they explained what an IPEX port is.

I'm still unsure as to how to handle this. Should I cancel my FTTP
order and stick with my existing broadband and landline bundle? Both
the FTTP and Uno bundle are £25 per month.

Or, go ahead with the Toob FTTP connection plus pay Uno for the landline
only, nearly £15 per month, as well as paying £25 for the port in the
hope that it does actually complete and the landline can then be ceased?

The Sipgate reply in case you're interested in what an IPEX port is:

"We have ported BT IPEX numbers before, but they are very "hit or miss",
from a "port" point of view, we would submit a "normal/standard" port
directly to BT and they will either accept or reject it."

"To our knowledge (which unfortunately isn't this great when it comes to
IPEX), it is only possible to port an IPEX number once, as in, direct
from IPEX somewhere else, if it has already ported off IPEX once before,
I do not believe it is possible to port it again. If it hasn't ported in
the past, then moving it now would be the "one" time it can be ported,
so it could port over to us, but it wouldn't be able to move again."

"Like I said, my understanding of this is not good (as the BT IPEX is a
bit of a black hole!), but it has something to do with the BT IP
Exchange port scenarios, and I believe these types of ports fall under
"Scenario 7" (again, I think)."

"Like I said, it is very hit or miss, and unfortunately, since we can
not guarantee that a port submission would work, and since each port
submission comes with cost (£25) then it can get expensive without any
result at the end of it all."

Malcolm

[Theo]

Post by Malcolm Loades
I then asked Sipgate if they could do an IPEX port. Their reply was
more helpful than voip.co.uk in that they explained what an IPEX port is.
I'm still unsure as to how to handle this. Should I cancel my FTTP
order and stick with my existing broadband and landline bundle? Both
the FTTP and Uno bundle are £25 per month.
Or, go ahead with the Toob FTTP connection plus pay Uno for the landline
only, nearly £15 per month, as well as paying £25 for the port in the
hope that it does actually complete and the landline can then be ceased?
"We have ported BT IPEX numbers before, but they are very "hit or miss",
from a "port" point of view, we would submit a "normal/standard" port
directly to BT and they will either accept or reject it."
"To our knowledge (which unfortunately isn't this great when it comes to
IPEX), it is only possible to port an IPEX number once, as in, direct
from IPEX somewhere else, if it has already ported off IPEX once before,
I do not believe it is possible to port it again. If it hasn't ported in
the past, then moving it now would be the "one" time it can be ported,
so it could port over to us, but it wouldn't be able to move again."
"Like I said, my understanding of this is not good (as the BT IPEX is a
bit of a black hole!), but it has something to do with the BT IP
Exchange port scenarios, and I believe these types of ports fall under
"Scenario 7" (again, I think)."
"Like I said, it is very hit or miss, and unfortunately, since we can
not guarantee that a port submission would work, and since each port
submission comes with cost (£25) then it can get expensive without any
result at the end of it all."

That's interesting. I've not come across BT IP Exchange before, but it
sounds like an IP-based routing system to replace the old PSTN routing
(exchanges etc). [Not the same as the retail 'digital voice' products]

I think the 'Scenario 7' is described here:
https://www.voicestart.co.uk/vanillaip/Porting/Number%20Porting%20-%20user%20guide.pdf?rid=34&catid=80&docid=541
as "Import Scenario 7: Porting of CP own number ranges hosted on IP Exchange
to another IP Exchange CP"

and the problem being moving a number from one IP Exchange platform to
another. There is some grumpiness about Scenario 7:
https://blog.simwood.com/2018/09/dirty-tricks/
https://www.ukvoipforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1331
which mentions:

"The following are excluded from Scenario 7 export requests:

Mixed Range Holder port requests
Mixed Losing CP requests
Re-presents
Return to Range Holder (GNP)
Subsequent Port (GNP)"

and I'd guess 'subsequent port' is the problem here. Those words are
extracted from:
https://www.btwholesale.com/assets/documents/products-and-services/voice/ip-exchange/handbook-and-technical-documents/ip-exchange-number-portability-handbook.doc

So it would depend whether Uno use BT IP Exchange for hosting your number.
I don't know how you'd check, but perhaps your new provider can.

Theo

[T i m]

On 12/10/2022 14:18, Theo wrote:

<snip>

Post by Theo
That's interesting. I've not come across BT IP Exchange before, but it
sounds like an IP-based routing system to replace the old PSTN routing
(exchanges etc). [Not the same as the retail 'digital voice' products]

Just as an aside to this, wasn't 'System X' all electronic or was it a
pre all-electronic / Strowger hybrid?

We (a batch of BT techs), on a PCM / TDM course at Stone in Staffs were
shown the routing process of a System X exchange. It took the guy about
half an hour to skim it and I think I remember them saying the entire
call setup took 50ms ITRW. ;-)

(And I think the 'point' was once the end to end call routing had been
established, much of the kit could drop out to be used to set up another
call)?

They were good times. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Bob Eager]

Post by T i m
Just as an aside to this, wasn't 'System X' all electronic or was it a
pre all-electronic / Strowger hybrid?
We (a batch of BT techs), on a PCM / TDM course at Stone in Staffs were
shown the routing process of a System X exchange. It took the guy about
half an hour to skim it and I think I remember them saying the entire
call setup took 50ms ITRW. ;-)
(And I think the 'point' was once the end to end call routing had been
established, much of the kit could drop out to be used to set up another
call)?

I sold BT some software that they used to generate test data for System X!
I still have it...it was generic.

[grinch]

Post by Malcolm Loades
<snip>

That's interesting.  I've not come across BT IP Exchange before, but it
sounds like an IP-based routing system to replace the old PSTN routing
(exchanges etc).  [Not the same as the retail 'digital voice' products]

Just as an aside to this, wasn't 'System X' all electronic or was it a
pre all-electronic / Strowger hybrid?

I was a tech in the second half of the 90's and worked alongside but not
on SystemX. It was totally electronic. The looked like a row of grey
wardrobes with GPT on each door.

[Andy Burns]

Post by grinch
I was a tech in the second half of the 90's and worked alongside but
not on SystemX. It was totally electronic. The looked like a row of
grey wardrobes with GPT on each door.

<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>

The insides of BT exchanges seem to be appearing in urbex videos more
and more these days ...

[David Woolley]

Post by T i m
Just as an aside to this, wasn't 'System X' all electronic or was it a
pre all-electronic / Strowger hybrid?

System X was digital, time-space-time switched, with common channel
signalling. Strowger was, at least, two generations earlier than than.
I think the intermediate generations where crossbar and reed relay.

Time space time means that it received the speech time division
multiplexed (30 way) reordered the channels in time, switched them
through to the right outgoing trunk, using cross connections for each
combination of incoming and outgoing trunk, which cycled through 30
combinations, and then shuffled in time again, on the outgoing side.
Reed relay and crossbar would have used, at least, three stage
switching, but all in space. You need less crosspoints to be able to
create a switch that cannot block (fail to find a free path) if you do
it in stages, than if you do a single switch with n-squared crosspoints.

Common channel signalling means that there was a separate channel on the
trunk over which a data link operated, using packetised, and potentially
packet switched, signalling messages.

Strowger is a distributed control design, whereas System X is a central
control one.

[Mike Humphrey]

Post by Woody
That is why (Ofcom?) set up the system that you tell your new SP your
number and the name of the old SP and it is up to them to organise it.
If Sipgate can't (or won't I more suspect as they have recently ceased
the Sipgate Basic package) then the only option is to move it to a
different SP (even BT?), use it for a bit, then transfer it to Sipgate.

Although there are actually *three* parties involved - the new service
provider that you're porting to, the old provider that currently holds
the number, and the owner of the number range. All three have to co-
operate to get the port done - the old provider has to cease service, the
new provider start service, and the range owner update the destination of
the number.

Post by Woody
Ask Marky says, the whole shebang is a bl**dy mess!

Yes, because it was grafted on top of a system of non-portable numbers.
If you were designing a system from scratch with portable numbers, you'd
design in a number lookup system - either a central system operated by
Ofcom, or something like DNS where you have number registrars who sell
numbers separately to the service you want to use them on. As it is,
numbers are allocated out in blocks of 10,000 to providers, and the
porting is effectively a redirect. The provider who issues a number has
to manage it forever, directing traffic to whoever the current provider
is.

Mike

[Woody]

Post by Mike Humphrey

Post by Woody
That is why (Ofcom?) set up the system that you tell your new SP your
number and the name of the old SP and it is up to them to organise it.
If Sipgate can't (or won't I more suspect as they have recently ceased
the Sipgate Basic package) then the only option is to move it to a
different SP (even BT?), use it for a bit, then transfer it to Sipgate.

Although there are actually *three* parties involved - the new service
provider that you're porting to, the old provider that currently holds
the number, and the owner of the number range. All three have to co-
operate to get the port done - the old provider has to cease service, the
new provider start service, and the range owner update the destination of
the number.

Post by Woody
Ask Marky says, the whole shebang is a bl**dy mess!

Yes, because it was grafted on top of a system of non-portable numbers.
If you were designing a system from scratch with portable numbers, you'd
design in a number lookup system - either a central system operated by
Ofcom, or something like DNS where you have number registrars who sell
numbers separately to the service you want to use them on. As it is,
numbers are allocated out in blocks of 10,000 to providers, and the
porting is effectively a redirect. The provider who issues a number has
to manage it forever, directing traffic to whoever the current provider
is.

Also don't forget that we started with three digit numbers albeit many
of those were manually connected, but four digits lasted for decades.
Now we have a mix of five, six, and seven digits which must be a
headache for anyone handling them!

And before anyone says it, I always thought that people with five digit
numbers had an extra digit on the dialling code - such as happens around
the Penrith area - that was until we were in the Honiton area a few
weeks ago. The code is 01404 but there are a lot of five digits numbers
following it.